Mythbusters on Ethanol (E85)

[Sir Charles]

Mythbusters on Ethanol (E85)

Mythbusters

Ethanol-blended gasoline powers cars and trucks hundreds of thousands of miles across the United States each and every year. In fact, it has powered vehicles through more than 2 trillion miles in the past 25 years. It is proven to decrease air pollution, enhance engine performance and boost local, regional and national economies. Every major automaker approves and warrantees its use. Even so, there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there. The truth is ethanol is economical, efficient and earth-friendly, and in North Dakota, it's good for all of us. Get the facts, and GoE!

Myth: Ethanol makes your engine run hotter.


Fact: There's a reason many high-powered racing engines run on pure alcohol. It combusts at a lower temperature, keeping the engine cooler. Ethanol, a form of alcohol, in your fuel does the same for your engine.


Myth: Ethanol is bad for fuel injectors.


Fact: Olefins in gasoline cause deposits that can foul injectors. By comparison, ethanol burns 100 percent and leaves no residue, so it cannot contribute to the formation of deposits. Fact is, ethanol actually keeps fuel injectors cleaner and improves performance. What's more, ethanol does not increase corrosion, and it will not harm seals or valves.


Myth: Ethanol plugs fuel lines.


Fact: Ethanol actually keeps your fuel system cleaner than regular unleaded gasoline. In dirty fuel systems, ethanol loosens contaminants and residues and they can get caught in your fuel filter. In older cars, especially those manufactured before 1975, replacing the filter will solve the problem. And if you continue to use ethanol-blended gasoline, your filter will remain cleaner for improved engine performance.


Myth: Ethanol isn't safe for older vehicles.


Fact: Many older cars were designed to run on leaded gasoline, with the lead providing necessary octane for performance. However, even dramatic changes in gasoline formulation over the past few years have not affected older engine performance. Ethanol, a natural, renewable additive, raises octane levels by three points and works well in older engines.


Myth: Ethanol harms small engines, like those on lawn mowers, snowmobiles, personal watercraft and recreational vehicles.


Fact: Small engine manufacturers have made certain that their engines perform with gasoline that contains oxygenates such as ethanol. Fact is, ethanol-blended fuel can be used safely in anything that runs on unleaded gasoline.


Myth: Ethanol actually increases air pollution.


Fact: There can be no increase in emission from ethanol-blended fuels; it's the law. In fact, ethanol reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 25 percent and displaces components of gasoline that produce toxic emissions that cause cancer and other diseases.


Myth: Ethanol contributes to global warming.


Fact: The energy balance for ethanol is positive, 1.35 to 1, so the greenhouse gas benefits of ethanol are also positive. Fact is, using ethanol produces 32 percent fewer emissions of greenhouse gases than gasoline for the same distance traveled.


Myth: It takes more energy to produce ethanol than it contributes.


Fact: Fact is, corn plants efficiently collect and store energy, so for every 100 BTUs of energy used to produce ethanol, 135 BTUs of ethanol are produced. In addition, ethanol facilities are extremely energy efficient.


Myth: Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used for food.


Fact: In 2001, U.S. farmers produced 9.5 billion bushels of corn and only 600 million bushels are currently used in ethanol production. Fact is, there's no shortage of corn, and the ethanol market could expand significantly without negatively impacting its availability. Besides, ethanol production uses field corn, most of which is fed to livestock, not humans. Only the starch portion of the corn kernel is used to produce ethanol. The vitamins, minerals, proteins and fiber are converted to other products such as sweeteners, corn oil and high-value livestock feed, which helps livestock producers add to the overall food supply.


Myth: Ethanol does not benefit farmers.


Fact: Demand for grain from ethanol production increases net farm income more than $1.2 billion a year, and ethanol production adds $4.5 billion to U.S. farm income annually. Studies have shown that corn prices in markets near ethanol plants will increase between 5 cents and 8 cents per bushel. In North Dakota, ethanol production increases the market price for corn by 25 cents per bushel. In addition, ethanol production accounts for a portion of the overall corn supply and helps improve corn prices nationwide.


Myth: Ethanol only benefits farmers.


Fact: The increase in net farm income results in a boost in the agricultural sector that cuts farm program costs and taxpayer outlays. Beyond that, ethanol production has been responsible for more than 40,000 jobs, or more than $1.3 billion in household income. It also directly and indirectly adds more than $6 billion to the American economy each year by boosting surrounding economies.

Sources: American Coalition of Ethanol and the Renewable Fuels Association

N.D. Department of Commerce
1600 E. Century Avenue Suite 2
Phone: 701.328.5300
info@GOeFuel.com
http://www.goefuel.com/facts/mythbusters.html

[BottleFed70]

What I like about the real mythbusters is that they are unbiased.  You guys...

I think you're preaching to the chior here tho.  Just about all of us know the many benifits to E85.

I've heard that E85l isn't as great for the environment as it's been claimed tho.  Sure it produces less tailpipe emmisions, but apparently it takes a lot of energy to produce in the 1st place?  Meaning that in the end, you're not much further ahead...

[cobrasan]

not that the corn/ethanol lobby would be bias in any way but
what about the massive government subsidies that make it affordable at the pump?

[Stangguy]

If this is true, then why has the cost of corn gone up? I can tell you for a fact, that here in cereal city (Battle Creek) the price of corn has gone up significantly! IF E-85 does not have a impact on this....do explain.


Myth: Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used for food.

Fact: In 2001, U.S. farmers produced 9.5 billion bushels of corn and only 600 million bushels are currently used in ethanol production. Fact is, there's no shortage of corn, and the ethanol market could expand significantly without negatively impacting its availability. Besides, ethanol production uses field corn, most of which is fed to livestock, not humans. Only the starch portion of the corn kernel is used to produce ethanol. The vitamins, minerals, proteins and fiber are converted to other products such as sweeteners, corn oil and high-value livestock feed, which helps livestock producers add to the overall food supply.

[BottleFed70]

If this is true, then why has the cost of corn gone up? I can tell you for a fact, that here in cereal city (Battle Creek) the price of corn has gone up significantly! IF E-85 does not have a impact on this....do explain.


Myth: Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used for food.

Fact: In 2001, U.S. farmers produced 9.5 billion bushels of corn and only 600 million bushels are currently used in ethanol production. Fact is, there's no shortage of corn, and the ethanol market could expand significantly without negatively impacting its availability. Besides, ethanol production uses field corn, most of which is fed to livestock, not humans. Only the starch portion of the corn kernel is used to produce ethanol. The vitamins, minerals, proteins and fiber are converted to other products such as sweeteners, corn oil and high-value livestock feed, which helps livestock producers add to the overall food supply.

Lol.. E85 is so revolutionary that the laws of supply and demand do not apply!  I believe that there is no shortage of corn.. It's damn easy to grow and can be grown almost anywhere.  But if you increase demand, price is certain to increase as well.
Personally, I'm not concerned... higher prices means more farmers will grow, and prices will stabalize again.   If the government subsidies stop tho... watch the corn prices plummet.

[Stangguy]

you will be concerned when you start paying more money at the grocery store. You do know the government pays farmers to to farm don't you. Its called a LAND BANK. So now the same supply is there with more demand.

[vwdave]

In the first part of the thread he makes it seem like "Mythbusters" did some research on E85, but at the end he posts his source as "Sources: American Coalition of Ethanol and the Renewable Fuels Association"

While ethanol is great and all, this sounds like a load of propaganda.

[LowBoostinT76]

E85 is the shit! I save $8 a gallon from comparable fuel. Its comparable to c16, and available at the pump. My turbomustang loves the stuff, I just wish my truck was setup for it!

[393Bird]

My Bird LOVES E85. I had to run race gas before, and still had to pull a lot of timing.  On E85, I run the timing locked, and do not pull any timing. The Engine loves it, and my plugs have no signs of any detonation at 15 psi of boost. This is on a street car with no intercooler.

[chowder48]

the only detrimental thing ive seen from E85 is the fact that the ethanol can eat the black gaskets in older carb/fuel systems.  for example the gasket between the carb and the gas tank on a lawnmower.  most newer stuff has a grey or beige gasket which isnt as effected by the alcohol.  good idea to keep a spare filter when switching over.  we are all a bunch of gearheads and none of us are to worried.  the only environmental concerns ive heard is that if you have a spill of any kind the alcohol is watersoluble and will spread easy, where as the petroleum products floats on the top of the water,and doesnt spread as much into the environment/watershed.

[jesse]

  I keep hearing all this price of corn and grocery store talk

  Did you know that a box of corn flakes has about 1.2 cents worth of corn in it. But yet the box sells for 3.50. If the price of corn increases 10 fold that would still be less than 4% of the cost of the product. I would be willing to bet that the prices at the grocery store are infuenced alot more by the price of diesel fuel than the price of corn. Or course the price of corn is also infuenced by the price of fuel too

[Schralper]

i WISH i could buy E85 here. I'd convert all my rides.
as a boy raised in the midwest    i don't see the arguments on corn prices vs corn production.
suck it up EVERYTHING is more expensive than it ever was!
the good ol daze are gone.
if E85 reduces overall petroleum consumption w/o more pollution, then it's a good thing.
if you can gain HP then 
 

[mustangcobra438]

Sounds to me like they need to get some E85 pumps down south real fast like in a hurry

[Batass]

not that the corn/ethanol lobby would be bias in any way but
what about the massive government subsidies that make it affordable at the pump?

Bingo.  I'm still not sure what I think about this.  Till they quit getting handouts, I say run gas in DD's and run ethanol only in high compression motors and boosted situations.

[Mr. Dew]

Bingo.  I'm still not sure what I think about this.  Till they quit getting handouts, I say run gas in DD's and run ethanol only in high compression motors and boosted situations.

Did you know there are govt limits on how much ethanol one plant can produce?  I know that ADM in Decatur, IL has enough hardware to produce 5 times as much ethanol as they are allowed.  They are actually considering building another plant across the street to get around this.  That seems like alot of cost for another plants.  Seems like dumb shit is going on at both ends to me.  I heard once that for every $1 places like ADM makes it take $3 of taxpayer money to subsidize it.  I dont know what proportion of that is actually to them or if most of it is from the corn itself. 

[Batass]

No one I talk to seems to understand this.  Why is that?  Its fine and dandy if its done for legitimate reasons, for a kickstart perhaps.  But I have little faith in our current politics.  Deep pockets and pointing fingers.

I wish ethanol could be produced on a local level, small business type.  Corporations go sour and greed gets the best of many of us. I could go on and on and on.........closing mouth.

[bgjohnson]

I haven't seen anybody say yet that it takes more fuel to produce the same amount in power. Yeah your saving money at the pump in your ECO friendly SUV, but instead of getting 14mpg with regular gas, your getting 11-12mpg or even worse.

Stoich for gas is 14.7:1
Alky is around 9.76:1

Do the Math if you like. I believe it's a 33% difference.

[Batass]

^I agree

It IS NOT cheaper to run ethanol than 87 octane.  But it does help to get away from petroleum based fuel. 

Its much cheaper than race gas.  Cheaper than methanol too.  And you can let it sit in your fuel system.

Great for racing, not for daily driving. 

E85 is priced based on the cost of gas.  If gas skyrockets, E85 will go up also.  So I don't ever really see it being a good DD fuel.

Ethanol WOULD be the perfect fuel, IF our population was much smaller.  We just use too much fuel.

[393Bird]

I have been running strictly E85 for over a year now, a find the fuel consumtion increase to be no where near 33% more. E85 can handle a much broader range  air/fuel mixture than gas,  and still run well. It will cruise much leaner than its Stoich, and not cause any problems. In blown applications, you can run it considerablely richer than Stoich to provide extra cooling and furture reduce chances of detanation, and still run great.

I am running a carb, and cruise with about 15% increased consumption over gas. My WOT consumption is close to 35% more, but that is with it  extra rich for added cooling.  With E85, you can be 1.5 points above or below Stoich, and only loose a couple of HP, unlike gas.

The price of E85 in the Corn Belt is low enough to more than offset the increased consumption. Here in central Tn, the stations are jacking it up too high, but for my use, it is still a grrat deal verses Racing Gas.

[LowBoostinT76]

I agree with the last two posts here.
E85 is great for people who want/need more octane. For daily driving in your regular car or truck at the price it is now its a wash. But it is made in the usa and supports our farmers and agurculture. So its really a win win situation. I have only hear nay saying against E85 by people who have never run it and or are afraid to run it. Once you use it you will love it. Like anyone here was thinking gas mileage when they were slapping there turbo/blower on there car.
Not to mention most setups running around on the street would probably get better mileage on E85 than gas with a proper tune from what they are currently running.

[Batass]

Better mileage per gallon than gas?  Not at the same power. 

The general consensus is that an engine uses roughly 30% more than gas, so at least around here, its priced 30% lower than gas.  I'm sure that will change though with supply/demand ratios.  I hear about new plants being built here and there.

Even if you could get it to match the mileage with gas, conversion kits aren't cheap that I've seen.  For carbs its cheap, but who the hell runs a carb everyday? 

[LowBoostinT76]

I was comparing a lot of suboptimally tuned pump gas cars I've seen, with a good tune on E85 you could make up the gas mileage vs a very rich tuned gas car. That's all I was saying.
What conversion kit would be needed? Bigger injectors perhaps and a way to tune.
Any car built in the 90's will support ethanol in the fuel. I run standard steel braided lines with no problems. As long as your fuel system is up to the task.
The cost of making a racecar isn't anymore expensive when using e85. Its all benefit with no downside.
richer stochiometric that is fine, now my turbos spool faster. There is no downsides on the performance aspect.

[Batass]

If I were to convert it, I'd want to be able to switch back to gas quickly in case I need fuel and am not near any e85 pumps.  Cheapest -plug in between the connectors-module I found was 700 bucks.  Plus maybe bigger injectors. 

Even at half that, I don't see making that money back.  As much as I hate providing a paycheck to those asshats across the pond, I still like to buy the most cost effective product.

Racing, absolutely no downsides.

[LowBoostinT76]

I hear ya, I run a bigstuff 3 so the gas tune is a quick load of a file and back to gas.
But daily driving or taking trips you would have to plan out the route to find stations on the way.
There is a station locator on one of the sites.
I don't think anyone on this forum is truely using e85 for savings over pump price. I think its for savings and availability over racing fuel. Mostly an octane thing.

[DC91GT]

If I were to convert it, I'd want to be able to switch back to gas quickly in case I need fuel and am not near any e85 pumps. 

That's why I don't run E85. There are only 2 stations in a 30 mile radius of me. With a Mustang that guzzles gas in the first place, I can't always think about how much E85 I have and will I make it back to the pump before I run dry. Wish we had it truly available everywhere. BTW, I own a flex fuel avalanche and most owners reoprt a 3 mpg decrease compared to gas so it is slightly more expensive to run E85. As stated above though, I would love to run 13:1 NA on E85 though. Much cheaper than racing fuel.

E85 used to be cheap but now it is $3.55 a gallon locally.