vecco / tfl performance hot side stainless sucks

[dr511scj]

rather than quote all of the useless rambling i will just type a response.

Not a bad suggestion.

1. I've never made any claims about the customer service of Pro Turbo or any of the other "old" kit builders.  The only reasons I mentioned them were: (a) failure to build twin kits for 5.0/351W which work with a/c, p/s and smog; & (b) that they are well-known in the market (unlike some who aren't even on the turbomustang's kit list).  Remember, I love competition because it gives customers more choice, lower prices and often better customer service.

2. BG CUSTOM TURBO must disclose all of their "evidence" in the context of litigation (it's called "discovery").   There is no valid reason why they shouldn't disclose the basis for their assertions.  If Vecco's kit fits BG CUSTOM TURBO's  jigs, then show us the photos!  Vecco's lawyers will get to see them anyhow months or years before any trial.  If BG CUSTOM TURBO has an expert, tell us his opinion.  Expert opinions must be disclosed at the early stages of discovery.   If BG CUSTOM TURBO's kit has some unique features, then tell us. Vecco will have the right to depose anyone with any knowledge of this mess, so why should BG CUSTOM TURBO be secretive?   They won't be able to surprise Vecco because of the discovery rules.  Obviously Vecco knows whom they allegedly bought the kit(s) from, so why is that fact a deep, dark secret.

 Vortech and ATI didn't try to hide the factual basis of their useless dispute--because it's futile to do so (unless protecting a trade secret under a protective order).  I submit it's more convenient to "try" the case in the media with rumor and inuendo than it is to lay out all the facts and let the folks decide for themselves on a fully-informed, objective basis.  

3. I HAVE NO PERSONAL INTEREST IN THIS (Other than trying to prod the market to build reliable, daily-driven-in-luxurious-air-conditioned-quasi-smog-legal-comfort twin turbo kit for Windsor-style engines).   And I don't like to see anyone rail-roaded by the rumor mill! Even poor, hapless Vecco!

4.  I have an anecdote on Vecco's responsiveness, too. I sent them an email a while back asking whether their kit could be  factory-modified to work with a particular type of spread-port aftermarket cylinder head and a 351W based block. I received a quick and courteous reply.  eBay numbers are relevant because it's data from ACTUAL CUSTOMERS, not just rumormongers posting on a message board.   It's part of what fair and neutral-minded people would consider.  I can see how it's irrelevant to those who want to rush to judgment based on isolated anecdotes.

5. "If you want a twin turbo kit with oem reliability you better find a car with one from the factory because that is the only way that you will ever find that."

Wrong.  If I wanted to put an SBC in my car, I could order an OEM-quality Banks twin-turbo kit today.   Do you really think that the upcoming Turbonetics/Garrett 4.6 twin turbo kit won't be virtually OEM in quality?  Why shouldn't the cottage-industry parts builders try to build OEM-quality products? Doesn't poor quality reflect poorly on the aftermarket?   Nobody is saying that the mom-n-pop kit makers shouldn't also cater to the pure drag racing market.  But some will pay for the extra durability and reliability necessary for long-term street duty. Is it wrong to ask for?

5.1  I'm unsure which "facts" I've presented are in dispute.  Nobody claims BG CUSTOM TURBO is in the turbomustangs kit list. Nobody claims they are as old as PTK, TTI, Cartech, Banks, etc. Nobody claims that anyone makes a twin kit materially similar to Vecco's. Nobody has shown BG CUSTOM TURBO holds any patents on their "design."  No one disputes the points I made about the Windsor cylinder head aftermarket or how excessive litigation would have crippled development of the early Ford aftermarket.  My positions are not dependant on establishing "facts" that aren't known to even casual followers of "the industry."

 However, if one is going to trash the rep of another company for cheating or "stealing" or some intentional act, they have the burden of proof.  All I'm saying is that BG CUSTOM TURBO has an obligation to back up what they say, and if they're going to take down Vecco, then in fairness, they ought to serve the twin turbo customers who would otherwise consider buying Vecco's fully-compatible twin turbo system.    

6. "I didn't say anything about it. My sig might, but I didn't."

That's simply Clintonesque!  How can you deny the contents of your own posts? "I didn't do it!  My sig did!" Who praytell programmed your "sig?"  Yo mama?  I simply don't care if you want to try to intentionally offend people with your sig (a vulgarity referencing a venerated religious figure--regardless of which one--is obviously going to provoke offense in some), or make an acerebrial point wholly unrelated to anything anyone reads this board for, or if you then disavow what your "sig" posts, or apparently want to goad undisciplined people into some sort of useless discussion with you.  Enjoy your apparent personal bigotry in peace, Brother!
[/quote]

[dr511scj]

Just like the media - you all just make up your only little story and believe whatever you want.  Thanks for the humor!  I will keep reading it gets better and better.  Pure Comedy!

Why should anyone pay attention to you . . . you've only got ELEVEN POSTS!

(BTW, I think Eric made some excellent points above)

[Scott02GT]

Well your the only one that actually makes any sense - but know what you mean - if your new you know nothing.  I have been following this and if you don't side with their buddies then you don't make any sense.   They make me laugh - especially since they have no facts!

Who the fuck is "they" My problem is coming here for the exclusine reason to start shit.  Le tme put it to you this way.  al the facts he list about kit the afformentiond kits:  We already know everything he stated...so what, you don;t like the  kits dr511scj?, don;t buy them!  Build your own if you know so much.  half the guys here did!  You seem to know quite a bit about all the kits.  Why don't you quit your whining and start your own company and buil kits the way YOU think they should be built, this way instead of blowing smoke up everyones ass you can take over the whole market.  IT is easy to talk shit when your in the stands, watching the game.

[dr511scj]

We already know everything he stated...so what, you don;t like the  kits dr511scj?, don;t buy them!  Build your own if you know so much.  half the guys here did!  You seem to know quite a bit about all the kits.  Why don't you quit your whining and start your own company and buil kits the way YOU think they should be built . . . .

I haven't bought the kits I don't like! (don't you remember pointing that fact out?)

I'd have to drop everything and come up with at least $100,000 in start-up capitalization to make a serious run at entering this market (and that's with outsourcing much of the major fabrication--which almost always leads to the kinds of shipment delays suffered by PTK and others). Otherwise, I'd end up a broke parriah like TDC, ITS and probably Vecco.  And I'd have to put up with all the internet experts who would be claiming that I didn't return their telephone calls fast enough, or I left out some bolt they stripped, or that my instructions weren't in the right kind of Crayon (tm) . . . .

Chasing the "49-state legal-with-a/c-&-p/s" twin market may make sense for those who already have invested in the start-up costs of the kit business.   But to invest that kind of time and effort from scratch just to pursue 25-100 potential sales per year (grossing a profit of maybe $100,000) probably isn't worth the risk for someone not already in "the industry." Besides,  I can't afford the pay cut . . . . 

I do like the fact that your argument is similar to my suggestion to BG CUSTOM TURBO to "shut up and weld," though.

Now that "number of posts" has been abandoned as a standard, is the new bar whether or not  you've cobbled together your own Mike Sitar knock-off JY install?  I don't think even Trent K has done that, has he?

[mustang_eas]

 

[RoadW3]

If you comment about post counts reffers to me, the point I was makeing has nothing to do with his knowledge, it has to do with coming here out of nowhere and talking a bunch of shit period.  There are always wars here, but there more and more brand new members coming here for the sole purpose of arguing, and that is somthign we do not want. 

It was not referring to you, just in general.  I have seen allot of that recently and I just wanted to get it off my chest that just because someone does not have allot of post counts does not mean they should chucked by the proverbal roadside.  That is it.

Thanks,
  Eric

[Scott02GT]

I haven't bought the kits I don't like! (don't you remember pointing that fact out?)

I'd have to drop everything and come up with at least $100,000 in start-up capitalization to make a serious run at entering this market (and that's with outsourcing much of the major fabrication--which almost always leads to the kinds of shipment delays suffered by PTK and others). Otherwise, I'd end up a broke parriah like TDC, ITS and probably Vecco.  And I'd have to put up with all the internet experts who would be claiming that I didn't return their telephone calls fast enough, or I left out some bolt they stripped, or that my instructions weren't in the right kind of Crayon (tm) . . . .

Chasing the "49-state legal-with-a/c-&-p/s" twin market may make sense for those who already have invested in the start-up costs of the kit business.   But to invest that kind of time and effort from scratch just to pursue 25-100 potential sales per year (grossing a profit of maybe $100,000) probably isn't worth the risk for someone not already in "the industry." Besides,  I can't afford the pay cut . . . . 

I do like the fact that your argument is similar to my suggestion to BG CUSTOM TURBO to "shut up and weld," though.

Now that "number of posts" has been abandoned as a standard, is the new bar whether or not  you've cobbled together your own Mike Sitar knock-off JY install?  I don't think even Trent K has done that, has he?

So in other words, if you can't do better, then shut the hell up period.  OR just build your own kit, you don't need to start your own company, just build your own,

[dr511scj]

So in other words, if you can't do better, then shut the hell up period.  OR just build your own kit, you don't need to start your own company, just build your own,

Well kids, let's close down the "kit review" section of the forum!  The "manufacturers" have spoken. We have no basis on which to speak out! At least we now have a third standard for a "legitimate"  post (not post number, not Sitar rip-offs, but whether you can invest hundreds of thousands of dollars to become a "better"  kit builder upon a whim).  Maybe I should share this tidbit of philosophy with the car testers at Road and Track, CD, MT or all the film critics . . . .

Sorry that honest product reviews, identification of underserved market segments,  and calling out the rumormongers annoys you, Bro!

[Scott02GT]

Well kids, let's close down the "kit review" section of the forum!  The "manufacturers" have spoken. We have no basis on which to speak out! At least we now have a third standard for a "legitimate"  post (not post number, not Sitar rip-offs, but whether you can invest hundreds of thousands of dollars to become a "better"  kit builder upon a whim).  Maybe I should share this tidbit of philosophy with the car testers at Road and Track, CD, MT or all the film critics . . . .

Sorry that honest product reviews, identification of underserved market segments,  and calling out the rumormongers annoys you, Bro!

THE KIT REVIEW SECTION ARE FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACUTALLY BOUGHT SOMETHING YOU JACKASS!.. You wan to hack on people and sling bullhit, there is a BS section for that you fucking tool.

[Scott02GT]

Are your arms getting tired? all the nut swinging has to be taking it's toll hahahah.

[Scott02GT]

"Little things affect little minds" - Henry David Thoreau

Hahahah why don;t you and your boyfriend go hang out i n the BS section, it looks like neither one of you have anything else to offer us, so why don't you go hunt for some porn to keep us entertained...no gay porn though hahahah

"those who cannot do... whine about those who can" -Me

[TwinTurboStroker]

This ones done.  If Brian @ BG CUSTOM TURBO wants to give us a conclusion to this, he can PM a moderator and it can be unlocked.