snow performance methanol injection

[Razor]

DASHIP,
Aluminum and steel will rot in alcohol. The only way aluminum can be used is if it was anodized.. then its ok.. but as long as the anodized doesnt come off the surface.

Stainless and brass work with no issues. Brass is the cheapest.

You can use a Jazz fuel cell,

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/idoxlr8_70/album?.dir=77ef&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

This is an install I did on a Lexus with a Supra single turbo motor conversion. If you look at the cell.. you may get some ideas.

I've been running alky full time for the last three years. Never has the system failed on me. Tho the more complicated the setup.. the more places for stuff to "happen". I have not had a pump i've sold fail, or controller ever comeback.

As far as the pump gas drags.. for one event a year.. man thats a lot of sweating it... you cant beat the benefits for not using it.

Windshield washer fluid varies in its concentration of methanol. I would just buy a gallon of methanol, a gallon of water.. and mix it myself. Its cheap enough. And yes there is corrossion issues with 50/50.

I did a dyno test on a Buick Stage II motor(car runs 8.50's at 165) at 16 PSI boost we ran 70/30 isopropyl and made 510 RWHP . we dropped the isopropyl and replaced with straight methanol, no other changes. AFR dropped from 12.1 to 11.9 and the motor made an additional 15 RWHP. Had we leaned it out to raise it back to 12.1 would have been more. The motor at 37 PSI runs the 8.5's

A Vette shop that does SC's last week just drizzled a little alky on one of there ATI cars and the RWHP with no changes went from 507 to 539. Straight methanol.

Its the oxygen content that makes the power..

[DASHIP]

One of my main concerns is if the system failed during a run.  I assume that if it did, and I had the A/F ratio dialed in for low 12's with alcohol injection, and if it failed, I would burn something up.  I'm curious how much your A/F ratio changes when injecting?  I guess it depends on the volume you are injecting, and whether it is water/meth or straight stuff.  I just can't risk hurting my motor, which is why I hesitate to run it at the track.  On the street, I just use it as extra headroom.  I usually don't run much boost on the street, so if it failed on the street, I would probably be OK.

Razor, what do you use for a filter in the system?  What do you use for nozzles?  It looks like you are running a diaphram pump also.  What pressure does it run at?

For those of you that switch it off and on, what do you do for different tune-up's when you switch?

[hybred]

would it be possible to use a stock ford 5.0 fuel injector work for a nozzle? when not  energized wouldn't it double as a sort of selinoid?

[DASHIP]

You probably could use a regular fuel injector.  I think that you might have to use a large injector, especially if you only use one or two.

[BOSs5.0]

I"m just going to pop in and say Razor's kit is the SHIT.  
I installed it last week and haven't had alot of time to really lean on it.  But, I got my wideband in tonight and was tooling around a little bit. Did a couple runs to see my A/F, got home and my intake was cold to the touch.  Everything else was hot or warm, but intake was cold.  
His kit has every adjustment you could need.  Not some cobbled together hardware store wanna be.

[Razor]

BOS"s5.0 , your making me blush

DASHIP, as you know many things can go wrong in a racing engine. Even a stupid rubber hose that goes to your fuel pressure regulator popping off can lead to catastrophic results, bad fuel pump, a bad ground, a simple cylinder misfire at high boost. See a lot can happen.

If you design a simple effective system with some common sense employed, it will last forever. If all the components used are proven over and over.. how can you fail.. well you can, but the risks are minimized.

This is why I wont do Hobbs switch systems, I rely on original GM MAP sensors(not something cobbled up), have no plug connectors on any part of my system making you have to solder everything, use the filter as a first line of defense against nozzle clogs, hoses that dont come apart or pop off, etc.... Anything can be done on the cheaps. You get what you pay for all the time. Just like you cant risk damage to yours.. trust me neither can I. Look for a Turbo Trans Am crossdrilled crankshaft..

No you cant use injectors with alcohol injection unless theyre of off a flex fuel vehicle. Then you need to control the injectors, make bungs and fittings, map them.. why when a simple 10 dollar brass nozzle will do the job and wont fail.

I find a lot of misinformation about these systems.  The most come from those that never have used or tuned one in. When theyre scratching their **** going I cant figure this out.. is when those dollars saved come back with a vengence. They always do.

As to the fuel question, I replace about 25% of my fueling with methanol. Pump will run at 150 PSI at full boogie, tho the idea is to run the pump at 120 and if the boost creeps/ shoots up, you have headroom to hit the motor harder with more spray.

I only do progressive kits. I stopped all fixed point kits becuase theyre a pain to tune. And once you understand how a progressive controller works, and how your to adjust it.. you'll see why I am completely on left field with my unit. There is no other box that functions like it made by any other MFG that I am aware off. The ramp has to be variable, not fixed. And the interaction of when it fires to the setup of its ramp does to.

If you pay attention to air fuel ratios.. you'll start understanding.

The filter is something I came up with as an inexpensive solution. Cant use any plastic filter becuase the inside usually has cardboard or tin.. and the adhesives must be methanol compatible. You can use a fuel filter from a flex fuel vehicle like a Ford Ranger, but its bulky and requires specialty fittings.

HTH

[Disney]

GREAT info Razor. I cant get enough of it.

Can you tell me thins? How much is too much?  I currently haev an Aquamist system, and have the .9 jet in it. I usually run water or windshield washer fluid. I can tell the washer fluid makes more power, but I haev to wonder is some is good, would more be better? A good friend of mine took his KB blown car to the dyno with his Snow kit, and the more he shot, the more power it made. He ended up maxing out his pump/nozzle and is looking to add a second nozzle. He picked up 40hp up top with no changes but shooting washer fluid!!!

So my question is...How much???

On my car, with water, the a/f on the WB drop almost a full point right now. I'd liek to drop it even more if I could since it gets up to 13:1 up top.

Also, on a side note...I am now VERY interested in your kit/controller. Is any of it adaptable to my Aquamist? If not, Im sure I can sell it for enough to get one of your systems up and running.

[Razor]

Shhh.. dont let the news out that the less water/more alcohol you shoot in, the more power you make.
 
See there are two trains of thought, well more.. but one issue is keeping the intake air charge low in temps. I mean to get numbers sub 100 when your at over 25+ PSI takes some volume. This volume now will replace the fuel the motor is using to keep the same AFR. So now you shoot a lot of methanol, drop your gasoline... you get the extra oxygen from the methanol.. and the cooling.. and guess what the extra oygen does to create power. Then you have the other whereby methanol is used just to reduce intake air temps on applications where race gas is used.

You will get at least a 40% reduction in temperatures using straight alcohol. Sometimes even more. My car runs 175 with the front mount IC at 24 PSI without alcohol. High 90's with through the traps. How much power is an 70+ degree temp drop worth?

There is a local guy here in Tampa, 97 Mirage with an AWD DSM driverain. Last year his best time running the Aquamist setup was an 11.3x at 133 running mix. AFR in the 12.8 range. And running out of injector. This April, with less than one day worth of tuning, and smaller injectors on straight alcohol, his third pass netted him a 10.89 at 131 running low 12's for AFR. Just getting rid of the water and changing controllers.     He's sold his aquamist setup.

Not that water doesnt work. Sure it does. At least once you can get over the hurdle that water injection actually works.. then the next hurdle is believing alcohol is a better medium. If you have a system that can handle alcohol, it too can handle water.. not vice versa. And you can try it both ways. Talk about a simple test.

Its my belief that becuase the SBF motors dont run knock detection its hard to tell if your detonating it.. until the HG goes poof. I cant count how many times i've heard its tuned rich..10.5 AFR.. its safe on pump gas.. then pooof goes the head gasket.. all of a sudden its blame the gaskets, blame the bolts, blame the heads, blame the block.. blame everything except realize you detonated the crap out of the motor and that why it took out the head gaskets.

On the Buick motors the most boost we can run on 93 is typically 16-17 PSI. Some cars with lower timing, front mounts, custom tuning can get to 20.. but rare.. no matter how much fuel you add.. past the 20 mark.. the knock sensor starts creeping big time even tho you dont hear anything in the motor. Those that tune by ear.. will inevitably blow their shit up. I've had my own car at 32 PSI with zero knock on 93 with methanol.

How much is too much.. I havent made power past the 25-30% replacement. Remember that twice as much alcohol is needed to make the same power as gasoline... so when you pull out 25% of your injectors, your adding twice as much in alcohol. And the saturation level gets so great that power starts dropping off. In theory one should be able and run a lot higher.. possibly if timing and the injection system were fuel injector based over the cylinders running huge injectors(160's) it may happen. More testing will follow. The numbers i'm stating have been from real world testing. But with fuel injectors come the compatability issue.

So back to the nozzle

Neat thing about water/alcohol injection, if you shoot too much.. at worst the power drops off big time, but wont detonate. Its not like nitrous where if you shoot too much without the fuel it needs.. you get into trouble fast.

HTH

[SoL_93GT]

Hey Julio, alot of good info there.  I talked to you a while back at Desoto about putting a kit on my car, I just haven't had the money yet.  I'm gonna be dumping a couple grand in my car within the next month or so.  I'll let you know when I'm ready.  I can't wait to run 20+ lbs of boost on my stock motor on 93 octane.  I'm hoping to make 600 to the wheels with a stock motor and fuel system.  Right now I'm making 509 rwhp/626 rwtq on 100 octane at 16 psi.  Once I build the drivetrain up, I hope to run low 10's on the stock motor.  Talk to you soon.

Briane

[SNEAKY]

what would be the placement for a nozzle, well before the throttle body? of right at if not after?

i figure before the MAF for sure.

[SNEAKY]

anyone ever use this?

http://www.snowperformance.net/proddetail.asp?prod=Auto120

[Razor]

Nozzle is after IC, and before throttle body. Keep it higher than the level of your tank and you wont need a solenoid.

If you put the nozzle in a vacuum source, then you will need a solenoid. IE, placed inside the intake.

I have some roots style cars that have the nozzle rite before the TB pointing at it. Works good for them. And others like the L67 GM ie..GS/GTP/Impalla that go after the TB and require the solenoid.

Do not spray alcohol through your MAF. That can be a very bad thing

[Razor]

Originally posted by SNEAKY
anyone ever use this?

http://www.snowperformance.net/proddetail.asp?prod=Auto120

You first. I already make enough power to hurt my block. Dont need any more.

[SNEAKY]

Originally posted by Razor
Nozzle is after IC, and before throttle body. Keep it higher than the level of your tank and you wont need a solenoid.

If you put the nozzle in a vacuum source, then you will need a solenoid. IE, placed inside the intake.

I have some roots style cars that have the nozzle rite before the TB pointing at it. Works good for them. And others like the L67 GM ie..GS/GTP/Impalla that go after the TB and require the solenoid.

Do not spray alcohol through your MAF. That can be a very bad thing

no IC.

so i would want it between the MAF and the TB correct.

[SNEAKY]

Originally posted by Razor
You first. I already make enough power to hurt my block. Dont need any more.

DO IT

[Razor]

Originally posted by SNEAKY
no IC.

so i would want it between the MAF and the TB correct.

This is a turbo, SC, or roots?

[V8TurboGMC]

Razor,
Thanks for all of the good info. Now Time for some more Q's

I plan on Turboing a 2000 Toyota Tacoma....its a lil 2.4L I have a little t3/t4 BB Turbo with a stage 5 exhaust wheel and a 62-1 compressor side. I was planning on using your kit because I dont have an IC. So....I want to use your kit for the Intercooling effect you said up to 40%...and Also use it for my extra fuel supply. So my question is... how much HP worth of Alky can your kit Shoot??? The factory fuel system can supply about 230HP or so... I was wondering if your system can shoot 100HP worth of alky? Im trying to go with out buying an FMU and injectors

What are your thoghts?

Here is a pic of the engine if I spray it before the TB you think I would have any fuel distribution problems with your kit?

[V8TurboGMC]

Pic of engine

[Razor]

Originally posted by V8TurboGMC
 The factory fuel system can supply about 230HP or so... I was wondering if your system can shoot 100HP worth of alky? Im trying to go with out buying an FMU and injectors

What are your thoghts?

Here is a pic of the engine if I spray it before the TB you think I would have any fuel distribution problems with your kit?

Let say you can add 20% more fuel. Even 30%. Thats not 100HP at the 230HP range. It may do it, but your asking for a huge bandaid. Its not the pump thats the issue. Rather getting the mixture right. It may very well do it. But i've never tried to bandaid a fuel system this way.

Better yet in laymans terms. You run your injectors at 100% DC and the motor makes the power. Put an alky kit on and now you can run the same motor at 75-80% DC. But to run 100% DC and want an additional 40% DC replacement.. I wouldnt do it.  

These pumps can supply the volume, question is getting it dialed in. Spend the money on your fuel system. Get it close. Let the alcohol make up the rest.

[V8TurboGMC]

Thats what I figured....So when you say 40% cooling effect, is that about the norm...what is a good ballpark figure for the cooling effect in this motor running about 15psi? What is the normal cooling effect for a front mount IC. Would you say your alky kit would cool the Air intake temps close to what a medium front mount would like the on in this picture ( know out side temps will effect the cooling factor). I plan on running both in the future but Im going to go alky first because its most cost effective.

Thanks Razor,
Kyle~

[V8TurboGMC]

...

[seirra]

has anyone noticed whether the engine ran noticably cooler with alky injection  (ie) coolant temps.

[Razor]

Kyle,
We did a test on a bigger turbo's motor not running an IC and only using methanol for cooling.

Results at 16 PSI were 245-250 turbo out let temps, IAT were 140's. At 25 PSI it was turbo outlet temps 300 degree's, IAT were 170's.

Every PSI boost is 10 degrees. 10 PSI=100 degrees plus ambient. When we did the testing it was 85 degrees outside so pretty much the numbers correllated. The turbo used was a Precision PT88 which at 25 PSI is in its sweet spot.

As far as reducing coolant temps, i've had a few customers relay that when spraying theyre temps come down.

I do know like on my own car when I lift the throttle the intake temps sometime go down into the 50's. With ambient here at 90 degrees(Florida). So the cooling of the intake can have some impact on coolant temps. Probably not a whole lot. Tho the motor doesnt heat soak as much.

When I would run race gas only it would take way longer in between rounds to have the engine cool down. I've probably dropped an easy 15 minutes in between rounds for cooling.

[V8TurboGMC]

Thanks again razor!
What is your first name? Ill probably give you a call next week to see what kind of kit you can put together for me.

Thanks,
Kyle~

[Razor]

Originally posted by V8TurboGMC
Thanks again razor!
What is your first name? Ill probably give you a call next week to see what kind of kit you can put together for me.

Thanks,
Kyle~

Julio,

My info is on my website. Glad to help.